Find below an English
translation, by CNA's Estefania Aguirre and Alan Holdren, of the March 5
interview of Pope Francis with Italian daily "Corriere della Sera".
Holy
Father, every once in a while you call those who ask you for help. Sometimes
they don’t believe you.
Yes, it has happened.
When one calls, it is because he wants to speak, to pose a question, to ask for
counsel. As a priest in Buenos Aires it was more simple. And, it has remained a
habit for me. A service. I feel it inside. Certainly, now it is not that easy
to do due to the quantity of people who write me.
And,
is there a contact, an encounter that you remember with particular affection?
A widowed woman, aged
80, who had lost a child. She wrote me. And, now I call her every month. She is happy. I am a priest. I like it.
The
relations with your predecessor. Have you ever asked for the counsel of
Benedict XVI?
Yes. The Pope emeritus
is not a statue in a museum. It is an institution. We weren’t used to it. 60 or
70 years ago, ‘bishop emeritus’ didn’t exist. It came after the (Second
Vatican) Council. Today, it is an institution. The same thing must happen for
the Pope emeritus. Benedict is the first and perhaps there will be others. We
don’t know. He is discreet, humble, and he doesn’t want to disturb. We have
spoken about it and we decided together that it would be better that he sees
people, gets out and participates in the life of the Church. He once came here
for the blessing of the statue of St. Michael the Archangel, then to lunch at
Santa Marta and, after Christmas, I sent him an invitation to participate in
the consistory and he accepted. His wisdom is a gift of God. Some would have
wished that he retire to a Benedictine abbey far from the Vatican. I thought of
grandparents and their wisdom. Their counsels give strength to the family and
they do not deserve to be in an elderly home.
Your
way of governing the Church has seemed to us to be this: you listen to everyone
and decide alone. A bit like a general of the Jesuits. Is the Pope a lone man?
Yes and no. I
understand what you want to say to me. The Pope is not alone in his work
because he is accompanied and counseled by so many. And, he would be a lone man
if he decided without listening, or feigned to listen. But, there is a moment,
when it is about deciding, placing a signature, in which he is alone with his
sense of responsibility.
You
have innovated, criticized some attitudes of the clergy, shaken the Curia. With
some resistance, some opposition. Has the Church already changed as you would
have liked a year ago?
Last March, I didn’t
have a project to change the Church. I didn’t expect this transfer of dioceses,
let’s put it that way. I began to govern seeking to put into practice that
which had emerged in the debate among cardinals in the various congregations.
In my way of acting, I wait for the Lord to give me inspiration. I’ll give you
an example. We had spoken of the spiritual care of the people who work in the
Curia, and they began to make spiritual retreats. We needed to give more
importance to the annual spiritual exercises. Everyone has the right to spend
five days in silence and meditation, whereas before, in the Curia, they heard
three talks a day and then some continued to work.
Kindness
and mercy are the essence of your pastoral message…
And of the Gospel. It
is the center of the Gospel. Otherwise, one cannot understand Jesus Christ, the
kindness of the Father who sent him to listen to us, to heal us, to save us.
But
has this message been understood? You have said that the Francis-mania will not
last long. Is there something in your public image that you don’t like?
I like being among the
people. Together with those who suffer. Going to parishes. I don’t like the
ideological interpretations, a certain ‘mythology of Pope Francis’. When it is
said, for example, that he goes out of the Vatican at night to walk and to feed
the homeless on Via Ottaviano. It has never crossed my mind. If I’m not wrong,
Sigmund Freud said that in every idealization there is an aggression. Depicting
the Pope to be a sort of superman, a type of star, seems offensive to me. The
Pope is a man who laughs, cries, sleeps calmly and has friends like everyone. A
normal person.
(Do
you have) nostalgia for your Argentina?
The truth is that I
don’t have nostalgia. I would like to go and see my sister, who is sick, the
last of us five (siblings). I would like to see her, but this does not justify
a trip to Argentina. I call her by phone and this is enough. I’m not thinking
of going before 2016 because I was already in Latin America, in Rio. Now I must
go to the Holy Land, to Asia, and then to Africa.
You
just renewed your Argentinian passport. You are still a head of state.
I renewed it because it
was about to expire.
Were
you displeased by the accusations of Marxism, mostly American, after the
publication of Evangelii Gaudium?
Not at all. I have
never shared the Marxist ideology, because it is not true, but I have known
many great people who professed Marxism.
The
scandals that rocked the life of the Church are fortunately in the past. A
public appeal was made to you, on the delicate theme of the abuse of minors,
published by (the Italian newspaper) Il Foglio and signed by Besancon and
Scruton, among others, that you would raise your voice and make it heard
against the fanaticisms and the bad conscience of the secularized world that
hardly respects infancy.
I want to say two
things. The cases of abuses are terrible because they leave extremely deep
wounds. Benedict XVI was very courageous and he cleared a path. The Church has
done so much on this path. Perhaps more than anyone. The statistics on the phenomenon
of the violence against children are shocking, but they also show clearly that
the great majority of abuses take place in the family environment and around
it. The Catholic Church is perhaps the only public institution to have acted
with transparency and responsibility. No other has done more. And, the Church
is the only one to be attacked.
Holy
Father, you say ‘the poor evangelize us.’ The attention to poverty, the
strongest stamp of your pastoral message, is held by some observers as a
profession of ‘pauperism.’ The Gospel does not condemn well-being. And Zaccheus
was rich and charitable.
The Gospel condemns the
cult of well-being. ‘Pauperism’ is one of the critical interpretations. In
Medieval times, there were a lot of pauperistic currents. St. Francis had the
genius of placing the theme of poverty on the evangelical path. Jesus says that
one cannot serve two masters, God and Wealth. And when we are judged in the
final judgement (Matthew 25), our closeness to poverty counts. Poverty distances
us from idolatry, it opens the doors to Providence. Zaccheus gave half of his
wealth to the poor. And to he who keeps his granary full of his own
selfishness, the Lord, in the end, will present him with the bill. I have
expressed well in Evangelii Gaudium what I think about poverty.
You
have indicated that in globalization, especially financially, there are some
evils that accost humanity. But, globalization has ripped millions of people
out of indigence. It has given hope, a rare feeling not to be confused with
optimism.
It is true,
globalization has saved many persons from poverty, but it has condemned many
others to die of hunger, because with this economic system it becomes
selective. The globalization which the Church supports is similar not to a sphere
in which every point is equidistant from the center and in which then one loses
the particularity of a people, but a polyhedron, with its diverse faces, in
which every people conserves its own culture, language, religion, identity. The
current ‘spherical’ economic, and especially financial, globalization produces
a single thought, a weak thought. At the center is no longer the human person,
just money.
The
theme of the family is central in the activity of the Council of eight
cardinals. Since the exhortation ‘Familiaris Consortio’ of John Paul II many
things have changed. Two Synods are on the schedule. Great newness is expected.
You have said of the divorced: they are not to be condemned but helped.
It is a long path that
the Church must complete. A process wanted by the Lord. Three months after my
election the themes for the Synod were placed before me. It was proposed that
we discuss what is the contribution of Jesus to contemporary man. But in the
end with gradual steps - which for me are signs of the will of God - it was
chosen to discuss the family, which is going through a very serious crisis. It
is difficult to form it. Few young people marry. There are many separated
families in which the project of common life has failed. The children suffer greatly.
We must give a response. But for this we must reflect very deeply. It is that
which the Consistory and the Synod are doing. We need to avoid remaining on the
surface. The temptation to resolve every problem with casuistry is an error, a
simplification of profound things, as the Pharisees did, a very superficial
theology. It is in light of the deep reflection that we will be able to
seriously confront particular situations, also those of the divorced, with a
pastoral depth.
Why
did the speech from Cardinal Walter Kasper during the last consistory (an abyss
between doctrine on marriage and the family and the real life of many
Christians) so deeply divide the cardinals? How do you think the Church can
walk these two years of fatiguing path arriving to a large and serene
consensus? If the doctrine is firm, why is debate necessary?
Cardinal Kasper made a
beautiful and profound presentation that will soon be published in German, and
he confronted five points; the fifth was that of second marriages. I would have
been concerned if in the consistory there wasn’t an intense discussion. It
wouldn’t have served for anything. The cardinals knew that they could say what
they wanted, and they presented many different points of view that are
enriching. The fraternal and open comparisons make theological and pastoral
thought grow. I am not afraid of this, actually I seek it.
In
the recent past, it was normal to appeal to the so-called ‘non-negotiable
values’, especially in bio-ethics and sexual morality. You have not picked up
on this formula. The doctrinal and moral principles have not changed. Does this
choice perhaps wish to show a style less preceptive and more respectful of
personal conscience?
I have never understood
the expression non-negotiable values. Values are values, and that is it. I
can’t say that, of the fingers of a hand, there is one less useful than the
rest. Whereby I do not understand in what sense there may be negotiable values.
I wrote in the exhortation ‘Evangelii Gaudium’ what I wanted to say on the
theme of life.
Many
nations have regulated civil unions. Is it a path that the Church can
understand? But up to what point?
Marriage is between a
man and a woman. Secular states want to justify civil unions to regulate different
situations of cohabitation, pushed by the demand to regulate economic aspects
between persons, such as ensuring health care. It is about pacts of
cohabitating of various natures, of which I wouldn’t know how to list the
different ways. One needs to see the different cases and evaluate them in their
variety.
How
will the role of the woman in the Church be promoted?
Also here, casuistry
does not help. It is true that women can and must be more present in the places
of decision-making in the Church. But this I would call a promotion of the
functional sort. Only in this way you don’t get very far. We must rather think
that the Church has a feminine article : ‘La’. She is feminine in her origin.
The great theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar worked a lot on this theme: the
Marian principle guides the Church aside the Petrine. The Virgin Mary is more
important than any bishop and any apostle. The theological deepening is in
process. Cardinal Rylko, with the Council for the Laity, is working in this
direction with many women experts in different areas.
At
half a century from Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae, can the Church take up again the
theme of birth control? Cardinal Martini, your confrere, thought that the
moment had come.
All of this depends on
how Humanae Vitae is interpreted. Paul VI himself, at the end, recommended to
confessors much mercy, and attention to concrete situations. But his genius was
prophetic, he had the courage to place himself against the majority, defending
the moral discipline, exercising a culture brake, opposing present and future
neo-Malthusianism. The question is not that of changing the doctrine but of
going deeper and making pastoral (ministry) take into account the situations
and that which it is possible for people to do. Also of this we will speak in
the path of the synod.
Science
evolves and redesigns the frontiers of life. Does it make sense to artificially
prolong life in a vegetative state? Can a living will be a solution?
I am not a specialist
in bioethical issues. And I fear that every one of my sentences may be wrong.
The traditional doctrine of the Church says that no one is obligated to use
extraordinary means when it is known that they are in the terminal phase. In my
pastoral ministry, in these cases, I have always advised palliative care. In
more specific cases it is good to seek, if necessary, the counsel of
specialists.
Will
the coming trip to the Holy Land bring an agreement of intercommunion with the
Orthodox that Paul VI, 50 years ago, nearly signed with Athenagoras?
We are all impatient to
obtain ‘closed’ results. But the path of unity with the Orthodox means most of
all walking and working together. In Buenos Aires, in the catechism courses,
some Orthodox came. I spent Christmas and January 6 together with their bishops,
who sometimes also asked advice of our diocesan offices. I don’t know if the
episode you are telling me of Athenagoras who would have proposed to Paul VI
that they walk together and send all of the theologians to an island to discuss
among themselves is true. It is a joke, but it is important that we walk
together. Orthodox theology is very rich. And I believe that they have great
theologians at this moment. Their vision of the Church and of synodality is
marvelous.
In a few years, the
biggest world power will be China, with which the Vatican does not have
relations. Matteo Ricci was Jesuit like yourself.
We are close to China.
I sent a letter to president Xi Jining when he was elected, three days after
me. And he answered me. There are relations. They are a great people, whom I
love.
Why
doesn’t the Holy Father ever speak of Europe? What doesn’t convince you about
the European design?
Do you remember the day
I spoke of Asia? What did I say? I didn’t speak of Asia, nor of Africa, nor of
Europe. Only of Latin America when I was in Brazil and when I had to receive
the Commission for Latin America. There hasn’t yet been occasion to speak of
Europe. It will come.
What
book are you reading these days?
Peter and Magdalene by
Damiano Marzotto, on the feminine dimension of the Church. It is a beautiful
book.
And
are you not able to see any nice films, another of your passions? “La Grande
Bellezza” won an Oscar. Will you see it?
I don’t know. The last
film I saw was “Life is Beautiful” from Benigni. And before, I saw “La Strada”
of Fellini. A masterpiece. I also liked Wajda…
St.
Francis had a carefree youth. I ask you, have you ever been in love?
In the book “Il
Gesuita,” I tell the story of when I had a girlfriend at 17 years old. And I
speak also of this in “On Heaven and Earth,” the volume I wrote with Abraham
Skorka. In the seminary a girl made me lose my head for a week.
And
how did it end, if I’m not indiscreet?
They were things of
youth. I spoke with my confessor (a big smile).
Thanks
Holy Father.
Thank you.